The Daily Bread Mailbag return with Stephen "Breadman" Edwards tackling topics such as the recent bantamweight fight between John Riel Casimero and Guillermo Rigondeaux, Manny Pacquiao vs. Yordenis Ugas, Saul' Canelo' Alvarez, and more.

Give us this day our Daily Bread.

What’s Good wit you bread?  I hope all is well with you and your family.  This is my first time writing in. I am a big fan of your mailbag. I am very interested in getting your overall opinion on Guillermo Rigondeaux?

I would like to believe that I am an independent thinker.  For the most part, I tried not to be influenced by the narrative that his been painted of Rigo, by the pundits, fighters, commentators and fans. That Rigo is boring, and he rides his bike. Make no doubt about, I would like to see Rigo sit in the pocket and exchange more. Absolutely. However, I can respect and appreciate the fact that its not his style. I feel that the moment he tries to appease the fan he is going to get caught and knocked out cause he is not fighting his fight. I was always under the impression that the sweet science was the act of hit and not being hit? Is that not what Rigo does? What I saw was a 40 year old chess master using movement to frustrate his opponent to the point he started chasing Rigo and throwing wild punches and looking very amateurish.  

I do think Rigo moved a bit much, but that was his gameplan. What I saw was a 40 year old boxer in tremendous shape and forcing his opponent to fight the fight he wanted.

What is your overall assessment of Rigo? Is all of this criticism warranted? I believe this guy gets such a bad rap and now that the narrative is set, he will spend a career fighting this narrative more than his opponents. It’s so easy now for a fighter who wants to duck him, to use this narrative. There is a long list of fighters who already have. I am a very huge Rigo fan but the narrative set against him is starting to affect my judgement of him. I tried so hard defending his performance as a defensive minded savant, but I am hard pressed to find many people to buy into this. I believe Rigo won that fight 7 rounds to 5 but I can’t say I thought he was robbed. I do feel the judges were influenced by the crowd boos.

My other question is what exactly does it mean “when a fighter loses his legs”?. Once a fighter loses his legs will any amount of training or PEDs either bring back his legs or extend the fighter from losing his legs any further?

Lastly, what is it going to take for boxing to make sure we don’t see another robbery like we did in the Fox vs Maestre fight? I was totally disheartened and disgusted with what I saw. I don’t know how many more of these robberies I can endure before I stop watching boxing altogether. Something has to be done.  What can we do as fans to help foster a change? This has got to stop.

Don Q NY

Bread’s Response: Long ago Greg Leon named this mailbag, The Daily Bread. It really stuck. Shout out to G. Leon.

My overall impression of Guillermo Rigondeaux is that he’s a great fighter. He’s one of the more talented fighters I have ever seen as far as God given ability. Maybe the most. Reaction time. Hand eye coordination. Foot eye coordination. Reflexes. Speed. Boxing ability. Rigondeaux checks the same boxes that Floyd, Sugar Ray, Roy and Pernell do. But the sum total of his parts don’t quite add up to theirs. Talent and ability to apply the talent is not the same. 

Rigondeaux has also been denied the chances to fight Scott Quigg, Leo Santa Cruz, Abner Mares and Carl Frampton. Four of the more popular fighters of his era who resided at his weight. He would have been completely shut out of big fights had it not been for the GREAT Nonito Donaire stepping up to challenge him. I think Rigondeaux is a borderline HOF as far as accomplishments but a legitimate great as far as TALENT and eye ball test. Throughout his career I never believed he was a BIG runner. The media wanted you to believe Pernell Whitaker was a runner also but in fact what he was, was a boxing savant who was offensively talented as well as defensively. Whitaker just wasn’t a ko machine. 

Rigo didn’t really run in his prime. What he would do was pose, posture, move some and put fighters in their place. They wouldn’t over pursue him because Rigo is a murderous puncher with the left hand to the head and body. So you can’t get Reckless with him. If he didn’t catch you with ONE punch and ko you, he would basically be content with just taming his opponents. If you watch his fights with like say Joseph Agbeko, he didn’t really over move. He just tamed Agbeko, Agbeko wouldn’t open up and Rigo just put the gears in cruise control. Rigo cruised too much but he didn't run too much. Often times he would get blamed because the opponent would go into a shell and stop trying to win.

However, As much I respect and admire Rigo I think he over did it vs Casimero. I think he felt Casimero’s power in the 1st round, when Casimero hit him while being down. He also felt Casimero’s energy of destruction. Casimero looked to rehydrate at least 12lbs higher than Rigo did. So self preservation kicked in and Rigo fought a low contact fight because of that. 

Ronnie Shields kept telling him to hold the center of the ring and let his hands go more. I don’t believe Rigo could do it without being stopped. So he fought the fight he needed to, to give himself the best chance to NOT be stopped. 

Now here is the caveat. A fight is scored on 4 Criterion. Clean Punching, Effective Aggressiveness, Ring Generalship and Defense. I will openly and objectively say that I didn’t like Rigo’s performance. I will openly say that he over moved and took the air out of the fight. But while watching the fight, I think the judges penalized him for what he didn’t do, more so than rewarding Casimero for what he did. Casimero aggression was not overly effective. He missed big constantly. I won’t go as far as to say he couldn’t cut the ring off because Rigo was moving so much and so fast that unless Casimero tackled him, there was no way to cut the ring off. 

I saw more Clean Punching from Rigo. I saw better defense from Rigo. Casimero was aggressive and he forced Rigo to over move. I think Rigo had the edge in Ring Generalship. For as poor as this performance was by Rigo, I think if you go by simple math. And score 12 individual rounds on the 4 criterion. Rigo has a better case for winning than Casimero does. 

But the boxing world and powers that be are tired of Rigo. They’re simply tired of his style. They’re tired of his swag. They’re just tired of him. So they gave the fight to Casimero. Rigo should have known he’s not going to receive favorable treatment. He knows how the establishment feels about him. If there was ever a time to establish his jab and sit down on his shots this was it. But again, credit to Casimero. There was something about him that made Rigo leery of that power.

I’m not offended or crying robbery at all. I get exactly why Rigo lost. It is, what it is at this point. Hopefully he made some money because this may have been his last BIG shot. 

To avoid more robberies, boxing needs 5 or 7 judges for title fights. The larger the portion size is, surveys and results become more accurate. The 2nd thing boxing can do is have a grading system on judges. Usually when a judge does something as bad as what was done in the Fox fight. That judge has a history of doing it. 

Last but not least, stop the system of promoters paying judges a per diem. What happens is the judges know who the A side is. So they make a silent agreement. They simply rule for the A side guy because they know that PLEASES the promoter and in turn the promoter gives them more WORK without either saying a word. The clever and more corrupt judges know how to disguise it without making their allegiance obvious. They know how to card count in a clever way. That judge won’t rob a fighter who is obviously better and is winning. That judge needs help from the A side. The A side has to be at least 40/60 in the fight. He can be losing just not being dominated. This is the reason why I don’t like to say, “it was close”, it could’ve went either way. Just because it was close it doesn’t mean it could’ve went either way. 

Manny Pacquiao vs Tim Bradley1 was close but Manny won. Marco Antonio Barrera vs Erik Morales 1 was close but Barrera won that fight clean enough. A close either way fight is Paulia Ayala vs Johnny Tapia. If we make judges State employees then they won’t have the same incentive to rob fighters in the interest of their own employment. Self preservation usually is paramount. So if we take this factor out, we may get more objectivity scoring fights.

Breadman,

I'm curious on your thoughts about the outcome in the Casimero vs Rigondeaux fight last Saturday night.  Two days later, I'm still walking around pissed.  I scored the fight 10-2 and my friend scored it 9-3, both for Rigo. As far as we're concerned, Rigo put on a masterclass.

Scoring is supposed to be based on clean punching, effective aggression, ring generalship, and defense.  Based on those criteria. I can't figure out for the life of me how Rigo objectively lost and Casimero won.  The general on-line commentary seems to be based on Rigo "running" and his low output.  

I don't think Rigo ran, I think he controlled the distance, displayed superior ring generalship and defense.  At least four times Casimero swung, missed, and hit the ropes, a la Canelo v. Floyd. When Rigo did throw a punch, he landed cleanly.  The same simply can't be said for Casimero who looked a like a blind bull charging forward. It seems that people want all action fighters, which bothers me on a whole different level because it isn't taking the fighters' long term health into consideration, but also ignores the sweet science.  Also, I think the judges ruled in Casimero's favor because ultimately the judges are paid by the promoters, the promoters think they can make more money off of Casimero in the future (despite a near empty venue and Casimero being the "A side), the judges want to be hired in the future, and therefore the fix was in.  Am I crazy for thinking this?

Steven B. Weinberg, Attorney at Law

Bread’s Response: I won’t call you crazy but I don’t think it was a master class. I thought Rigo OVERMOVED and went too long in stretches without landing or throwing punches. If you are going to play keep away, you have to score more points. Mathematically I thought Rigo most likely won. He landed the cleaner shots. His defense was better. Casimero was coming forward but he didn’t land much but his presence did make Rigo fight a safety first fight. Rigo has never fought like that before. This was the worst performance of his career in my opinion. But he’s an enigma. He brings out strong emotions from both sides. 

While I don’t think it was a great performance. If you go by the 4 Criterion of scoring a fight and judge each round individually I think he won. But I can honestly see how and why a judge would score for Casimero. In all honesty neither fighter looked good. And that’s something that most can’t say. This wasn’t a robbery. This was a case of the SYSTEM being tired of Rigo and his style. And this fight was subjectively close enough to take it from him and they did. People say that Rigo should have punched more. I think he should have too. But punching more puts you in the line of danger more and Rigo didn’t want to get clipped by the big punching Casimero. Casimero in turn tried to make the fight. But he couldn’t get too reckless because Rigo is a big puncher also. Therefore, we had a really bad fight and that’s not something I usually say.

Thanks for doing the Mailbag.  I hope all is well.  When i watched the Fox vs Maestre fight  I wondered if the commission who missed the skinning of the gloves was trying to send a message to Fox and his camp with that decision.  Seemed like they were embarrassed/ angry about being called out by the trainer.  Do you think they are brazen enough to do that so blatantly or do you think it's just run of the mill incompetent judges? Also,  What did you think of Rigo's performance?  how did you score it?  I thought Rigo looked sharp especially for his age but I think he probably needed to open up more to get over the perception of him being boring and not bringing the fight to his opponents. 

Bread’s Response: I think the odds were stacked against Fox long before the skinning of the gloves came into place.

Good Morning Coach,

I first want to thank you for your insights, I look forward to the mail bag on Saturday mornings. I believe many people are selling Ugas short in this fight! Pac is phenomenal however at 42 years old he is not the force he once was. I predict that for the first 4 rounds he will look sensational but will begin to fade during the middle rounds. Ugas is too big and strong, he handled Shawn Porter’s strength, although Porter elected to box Ugas. Keep in mind Pac didn’t blitz Thurman, he won by split decision, aided by the early knock down. I’m picking facts over sentiment. Ugas wins this fight by split decision.

Greg

Bread’s Response: Ugas has a reasonable chance to win this fight. You aren’t crazy. I know plenty of people picking Ugas. He has variety on his right hand and you need that vs Southpaws.

Hey Breadman, your column is great boxing commentary, keep it up! I’m sure no one that has followed Rigondeaux’s career was really surprised by the firestorm of criticism after Rigondeaux/Casimero, but I wanted to point out a few things about the fight and about Rigondeaux,  and then get your thoughts.

1. Casimero was also very cautious- Rigo was on his bicycle for portions of the fight, but when he stopped and planted his feet, Casimero also stopped- he wasn’t anxious to wade into Rigo.

2. No other bantamweight/super bantamweight has been as good as Rigo at his age- not Zarate, not Gomez, not Barrera- and this tends to show what a great fighter Rigo WAS.

3. Rigo landed the harder punches in the Casimero fight- the two best punches I remember were the two Rigo straight lefts in the 2nd.

4. Rigo landed more clean punches to the face- almost all of Casimero’s punches upstairs were pawing/grazing punches that touched the top/ back of the head, and several of his body shots were low.

5. When both men were in their prime, Rigo dominated and busted up Donaire, who’s a top 10 super bantamweight all time. I scored the Casimero fight 8-4 for Rigo, but it was a fight where a couple of punches might swing a round, so I wouldn’t necessarily disagree w/ a tight decision for Casimero.

I also understand people who call Rigondeaux, boring, unwatchable, etc.- those are subjective judgments. But damn, if they’re going to call him all that, they should at least also call him what he obviously is- one of the great fighters of this era, and one of the best ever in his weight range.

Thanks, Forrest from Arkansas.

Bread’s Response:

1. I agree Casimero was also cautious.

2. I agree again.

3. I say Rigo landed the cleaner punchers. The harder puncher in every fight is the fighter who can take the other’s shots the best. If Casimero landed the shots Rigo did, I believe he would have won by stoppage.

4. I agree

5. I agree

Bread,

We just had a stacked night of fights so just some quick thoughts on a few of the fights that took place over the weekend :Rigo/Casimero- You may disagree with this, but I honestly feel like Rigondeaux's performance may have shown the best set of legs of anyone over 40 years old in the history of boxing. A lot of people joke that he is older than 40 years old, but that makes it even more impressive! Little fighters age out quicker than others and this man is considered a grandpa in the sport and he was able to use his legs for the entire 12 rounds and avoided every big shot...The problem was that he never fired back and that I think comes back to the issue of him staying in the amateurs for far too long. Some fighters just never get out of those bad amateur habits and Rigondeaux is a pure points system type of fighter but in the pros you have to inflict more damage. He is a guy used to of landing a shot and then getting out of the way and that being enough to win. This is why I think at maximum, a fighter should have 150 amateur fights before turning professional. Obviously Rigondeaux could not do that due to where he was living but he looked like the better fighter but not unlike his fellow Cuban in Lara vs Canelo, they just had too much unnecessary movement.

Ortiz/Kavaliauskas- This was the perfect type of fight for a young emerging contender and one he had to dig deep in and adjust mid-fight. Ortiz was rocked badly in the 2nd round but he made the proper adjustments and started to jab more and took some steam off his shots and ended up getting the job done. Is he flawed? Sure, but I'll tell you what, it's going to be hell to beat this kid. What I hate is how he and Ennis both get shot down when they mention the top names. They are at the age that Lopez upset Lomachenko, Floyd had arguably his best performance of his career vs Corrales, even older than when Hearns fought SRL. In what other sport do we consider a 23 year old too young and unable to compete with the best? What doesn't get mentioned is often times an athlete will have their peak performances from the age of 22-24. No way does it state they have to be older than 25 years old to compete at the highest level. I never understood this crap that gets said in boxing as it is complete nonsense. If Ennis and Ortiz want Spence and Crawford? Let them get their opportunity and see what happens. I don't hate these guys at all for wanting to test their greatness.

Buatsi-Bolotniks - This was another good fight for the emerging contender as Buatsi had to really bite down and break Bolotniks down as he was not going anywhere. These are the types of fights this man has needed for the last few years. Did he get hit more than he should have? Yes, but he also did a lot of good things in the ring and he has a trainer who can help him correct some of his flaws. Buatsi's chin looks solid enough and he has a very good jab to go along with power and is one that tries to grind you down for 12 rounds. There are some similarities to his style to Spence but I think the latter has better distance control and that is one of the main differences between the two. Of course since he struggled a little bit, fans were quick to shoot down any chance he has against Bivol or Beterbiev. Let me tell you right now, despite his flaws, Buatsi will give those two a run for their money if/when they fight next year. He is not an easy out by any means and a consistent fighter like this for 12 rounds that could take a good shot is sometimes the hardest fighter to fight. If you notice when Hunter gives him instructions, he repeats or asks what Hunter tells him showing he is fully in tune to what his trainer is asking him to do. Hunter is the exact type of trainer that will give the fighter just enough in those tight, grind it out types of fights. His fighter is going to be mentally stronger than the opponent.

Curious to hear your thoughts!

Take care

Bread’s Response: Ortiz reminds me of a young Fernando Vargas. Fast, electric, good fundamentals. Vicious temperament. I also think we are watching Vergil in his prime right now. There is no way this kid needs to wait 2 or 3 more years to fight for a title. There was a time when fighters were HOF by 23. People get it confused when they hear a fighter is ready. It doesn’t mean they are guaranteed to win. It means they can compete. No fighter is guaranteed to win. If Ortiz waits he will miss his moment. Besides that, a fighter with his electric energy and temperament won’t be the same at 30. He needs to go on his run now and whatever happens, happens.

I loved his performance vs MM. I loved his punch selection and jab. If he becomes more mindful of the incoming shots he’s going to be hard to beat. Very hard to beat, because he’s faster than most overwhelming fighters.

Virgil Hunter is doing an excellent job with Joshua Bautsi. I can see Hunter’s style evolving in Buatsi. Buatsi may also be the biggest puncher Virgil has had. So I’m curious to see what he can do what a prime puncher. I think Hunter will win a world title with Buatsi. It won’t be easy because light heavyweight is top heavy. But I think they can break through together.

Buatsi has a mature character and intelligence about himself. The boxing ring is a truth machine and these things will surface in big moments. I feel like if Hunter gets one more camp with Buatsi they can roll the dice. Buatsi will struggle in fights because he’s a technical grinder. He has some Saad Muhammad in his game. He’s not Roy Jones. So the critics have to critique in context. Bolotniks had his moments. There is no denying that. But that’s ok because I don’t expect Buatsi to be a virtuoso fighter. His defense can get better but not at the expense of his offense. So Hunter has to make small adjustments without compromising his offense. They did that in the fight. Buatsi also has a clutch gene. He lands the right punch, when the right punch is needed. If his jab and body punching improves. I would favor him to beat Bivol and be 50/50 with Beterbiev. 

You were right again. Let the teams work out the contracts and don’t pick sides. It seems as if they did just that with Canelo vs Plant. I saw your tweet and the people who were wrong just can’t take it. The fight was made. Now that it has been made, what are the keys to victory?

Bread’s Response: Canelo is the proven commodity. He’s going to do what he does. He’s evolved into a great pressure fighter. At one point in his career he sort of wanted you to come to him. Now he can go get you. He’s really good at trapping fighters on the ropes. He intimidates them. They shell up on the ropes and he punishes them like he did in his career best performance vs Callum Smith. He can also score from the center of the ring because he has a quick 1st step. He also doesn’t care what he hits. His fist have developed into hard rocks so therefore he launches punches in and even if you block them they have an effect. Canelo is going to bring it to Plant and if he can’t walk him down, he’s going to try to run Plant into something by playing coy. He’s going to try to break Plant initially. I could be wrong but I believe Canelo thinks Plant is soft. 

Canelo does great at coming forward these days but he still only punches off of one big step while moving forward. It’s not a Joe Frazier vs Ali 1 pressure. It’s one big step with a punch or he traps you on the ropes. This where Plant’s chances lie. If Plant can box Canelo with his legs first and hands second he can win. Not run but use his legs to avoid that first big shot, he can win. People say that Canelo’s stamina is greatly improved. I say it has improved but we haven’t seen him expend Frazier like energy either. 

The boxer can wear the pressure guy out also if he does it right. A snapping jab, alters the spine and takes the legs away. The say Ali didn’t body punch but he snapped and spinned his jab on your forehead and it made fighter’s nauseous. Plant has to be alert, smart, reactive and remember use his legs as his defense. Canelo rarely throws more than one punch while the opponent is moving. The blistering combinations come while the opponent is on the ropes, or stationary. 

I know Canelo is a -800 favorite. I know Plant went the distance with Truax. But something tells me Plant will fight a great fight. I look to see if a fighter invest in his career. Plant does. This fight will either look like Julio Cesar Chavez vs Hector Camacho with Canelo being Chavez and Plant being Camacho. Or Ray Leonard vs Roberto Duran 2, with Plant being Leonard and Canelo being Duran in the rematch. I’m happy for boxing. We deserve it. I hope no one gets injured or pulls out.

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