The Daily Bread Mailbag returns with Stephen "Breadman" Edwards tackling topics such as the recent clash between Carlos Adamas and Julian Williams, heavyweight prospect Jared Anderson, the title clash between Stephen Fulton and Naoya Inoue, Canelo Alvarez and more. 

I feel for you Breadman. So much to talk about. First off props to you for getting Jrock back in form. I thought he was going to get drilled within three rounds and I was surprised at how well he fought. His legs don’t seem to be what they used to be but with the shape he was in, he was able to stand up to some huge blows. Not only that, he was giving it back. Adames was feeling that laser like right hand, one sequence was a split guard right hand, then a followed by a counter right hand. The skill that Jrock has is something. He’s this era’s Terry Norris. Errol Spence commented on twitter that he loves watching Jrock fight. That says something considering Spence trains with the Charlos.

But the point of my comment is the politics of the fight. Adames was billed as the most avoided and feared fighter in boxing. That’s unbelievable. The question is what’s behind that? How can a fighter who was beat up by Patrick Teixeira be the most avoided or feared fighter in boxing? No one in the know would even try to sell that, yet the fans, media and even Showtime somehow bought that. Jrock sure didn’t seem too fearful. I noticed there were repeated low blows in the fight from Adames and you told Jrock to hit him back low. I don’t blame you. The referee Mark Nelson seemed reluctant to do anything. I knew he looked familiar and after some thinking I remembered he was the same referee who did a horrible job in Pacquiao vs Horn. Freddie Roach and Pacquiao both had harsh criticism for Nelson and nothing was done about it. Ironically that fight seemed like a set up. I don’t know if you know Freddie Roach but if you do, give him a call. Now this. In the moments before Nelson called the fight, Adames went low twice and those blows landed cleaner than anything that could’ve caused the stoppage. If Julian Williams’s safety was his main concern why not stop the low blows?

I’ve never seen you so upset and I’ve been watching you with your guys for over ten years. At the time of the stoppage I had Adames up slightly but Julian was landing some nice stuff and he always came back after Adames surged. It seemed like they didn’t want to chance it if Adames could close the show down the stretch, Julian was fighting too hard and too good and those championship rounds would have been up for grabs. During your interview you said what everyone in boxing wanted to say but couldn’t. But I’m assuming you didn’t know that judge Raymundo Perez had Julian down 80-72, because you didn’t mention it. That’s even more egregious than what Mark Nelson did. Julian won the third, fifth and eighth. And I felt like the first was a swing although I gave it to the champion. But having Julian down 80-72 shows that you guys were set up to make Adames look like a killer and when it didn’t work out the way they thought, the referee pulled the plug.I know you care about Julian like he’s your son. What are you going to do next or will there even be a next time?

Bread’s Response: I’ve been hurt by losses before. But I’ve never been this angered. It’s a difference. 

I didn’t know that Mark Nelson was the referee in Horn vs Pacquiao or I would’ve asked for him to be removed because Horn and Adames have similar rough tactics. But I take the blame for that. I should’ve researched better. I looked at his last few years of officiating and I didn’t see anything controversial but I didn’t go back as far as the Horn fight. Again that’s on me. 

I also didn’t know that Raymundo Perez had Julian down 80-72 or I would’ve definitely said it during the interview. I'm wondering if Perez is a licensed judge and if so in what state is his license from. That's an awful scorecard.  

In boxing nothing is surprising to me. But when it happens to you directly, it hits different. All I can say is hopefully the scorecards, low blows and stoppage all get reviewed. I don’t expect the results to get changed but I am curious to see if the officials keep working big shows, especially Raymundo Perez. That will tell me a lot if they keep working big shows. 

As for what’s next for Julian. I don’t want to comment on that right now. I told him to take some time off and spend time with his family for about 2 weeks. You don’t want to make important decisions immediately after such an emotional event.

What a fight! Julian and Adames were going at it. Both got cheated out of a conclusive ending. But what’s the deal with Adames’s trainer Bob Santos? He jumped in ring talking crazy about Julian, then tried to shake his hand. He’s a snake. I’m glad you told him to kick rocks. I remember Jose Benavidez Sr and you also had words. What’s up with these guys?I’ve heard Santos in interviews speak very highly of you but at the same time I’ve heard him speak on sparring Caleb Plant which should never be talked about. I‘m no big time trainer but I live in Vegas and even I know to never comment in interviews about sparring. Then after the fight you could hear him on camera saying that’s your second fighter. Did you ever go against Santos in the past or was he talking about sparring Plant? Do trainers have issues with each other or was this just him gloating in the moment? He’s definitely a guy who has never seen a camera he didn’t like.

Bread’s Response: I can’t speak for other trainers but I don’t beef with anyone in boxing, this is a business not the streets. This also isn’t hip hop where older men talk about each other for clicks on the internet. I’m not into that. I don’t say much in terms of trash talk either. It’s just not me and it looks corny. Nor do I like to argue with anyone because I know where I’m willing to go with it. I said what I said in the ring because Bob disrespected my fighter and it needed to be addressed right then and there. Nothing more or less.

As far as I know this was my first fight against a Santos trained fighter but I would have to research to be 100% sure. But as of right now I’m going to assume he was talking about sparring Caleb Plant. But he also made the mention of sparring David Benavidez at the press conference. So that’s confusing to me because I don’t have anything to do with Benavidez’s career. It was bizarre to bring Benavidez up at a press conference between Carlos Adames and Julian Williams. I have no idea what was behind that.….I also hate having to address sparring. It’s ridiculous if you think about it.

As far as Bob talking highly of me. He has talked highly of me, as I of him. We never had any issues as far as I know and we always had mutual respect for each other. But just because he didn’t speak badly about me doesn’t mean I’m ok with him disrespecting my fighters. Caleb Plant is MY GUY and he was my guy way before I ever trained him. I’ve known Caleb since he first turned pro and we had a relationship that people didn’t know about way before I trained him. Caleb has had me in his home and around his family and I don’t take that lightly. Where I’m from we don’t invite people to our homes if we don’t trust them, so I honor that. I have genuine love for Caleb. 

Caleb trusted Bob and told me Bob was his friend. So Caleb felt betrayed by Santos’s comments about sparring. Once someone betrays you to that point in this game there is no coming back from that. It wasn’t an act of emotion that we all have been guilty of. Bob talked about Caleb in multiple interviews, multiple times, so I believe it was a calculated attempt to bring attention to his fighter, Carlos Adames who was somewhat overlooked.

As for Julian I heard Bob’s comment about him also. Julian and Bob were also cool. To my knowledge Julian never had any issues with him, at least he never shared them with me. Julian is not a big trash talker in terms of disrespecting teams etc. So that caught me off guard also, especially celebrating like that after that bizarre ending. Julian is a kid that I literally played a father like figure to. So I’m going to be protective over him instinctively. That’s why I said what I said to Santos and the referee. I honestly wish the stuff with me and Bob Santos wasn’t caught on camera but unfortunately it was. But I’m always rocking with my guys, especially when they’re being disrespected and attacked by someone who they never did anything to. 

For the record I don’t clump Santos and Jose Benavidez Sr together. Benavidez had a KNOWN beef with Caleb long before I came along. Me and Jose had slight words and he immediately apologized and nothing else was said. He also apologized to Caleb after he fought his son with no more incidents. There was no disrespect after the fight. No gloating after Benavidez and Plant fought. Julian and Caleb thought Bob Santos was cool with them. So the betrayal was more like a sucker punch. More like, dam where did that come from? Caleb knew the Benavidez’s didn’t like him at the time. It’s different when you know where someone is coming from. 

If you notice I try to stay away from this type of nonsense. I’m not getting into nothing with a kid young enough to be my son, it doesn’t look right. And I’m not going back and forth with any trainers because again it looks stupid, ego driven and silly. Especially when we can speak in private man to man. Hopefully I don’t have to speak on this again. It doesn’t matter who’s fault it is, it’s silly to be a part of this.

Bread if I were you I would tell Julian to retire. The compubox was not counting his punches. The ref was against him all night. One of the judges had his scorecard filled out before the fight. And he has only fought 3 times since his loss to Jeison Rosario in 2020. This is the blueprint of how ageing fighters who have name value get treated. The system will use him up. You got him invested in real estate. You took care of him. Now it’s time to retire him. It’s obvious they want to use him up and make him an opponent. 

Bread’s Response: I don’t care about coming in a fight against the odds. I honestly appreciate the opportunities, some coaches don’t even get chances with their guys..Sometimes you’re the A side. Sometimes you’re the B side… I’m an optimistic person and I’m willing to go up against any odds as long as the playing field is level. Bringing my fighter in up against the odds is a challenge and an honor.

I didn’t see Compubox because I was obviously live at the fight. So I can’t comment on that. 

I also don’t want to advise Julian of anything right now. Too many emotions. But ultimately it’s his decision not mines. I also want to state that Brittany Goossen Brown waited in the locker room with us the entire time after the fight. She comforted Julian and gave him support. So we did get support from the promotional company. Tom Brown also called me to check on me the next day, and it meant something to me for Julian. Fighters may not say it but they get lonely and it's easy to make them feel abandoned. 

However, I feel like that as fighters get a loss or two. And they get older. And there are clear A sides and B sides in fights. Specifically the officials just go to the A side even without anyone prompting them to do so. But what needs to happen is that these officials need to be sternly reprimanded. Let’s see what happens.

hi bread .just a few thoughts on the Inoue / Fulton matchup. i like both fighters and like scooter on points. but with all these decisions going against underdogs and with Inoue being so massive in Japan just can't see him getting it so can't bet it. I give Fulton massive respect for going to Japan but I predict controversy. What are your thoughts on this fight, ? I can see them fighting more than once. keep up good work on mailbag always good reading  

Alun UK

Bread’s Response: As of this moment I’m also leaning towards Fulton. But that’s not my official pick. Let the fight get closer. I can however tell you how I think the fight will go. I believe Inoue is the more naturally talented fighter and explosive athlete. I believe Fulton is physically bigger and stronger. Both have strong minds but Fulton has an innate ability to adjust and just find something. Inoue likes to put his talents on display.

Although it’s breathtaking, I think this plays into Fulton’s hands. This allows Fulton to download data and adjust. At a certain point Fulton will start to push forward, and dirty box Inoue. He will also attempt to break Inoue’s rhythm with his jab. Because Fulton doesn’t have sudden fight ending power, he’s very accustomed to doing this. I’ve only seen Inoue have to do it once in his first fight with Nonito Donaire. Again I think this plays into Fulton’s hands. This fight comes down to if Inoue can find and keep his attack rhythm vs the bigger, stronger adjuster. And if Fulton can neutralize the offensive dynamo’s attack and not get caught with anything debilitating while attempting to adjust. My guts tell me that Fulton becomes as good as he needs to be….

Hey Bread,

You are pretty much always right. Despite your biases, you still give the truth. But one still has his own taste and preferences. I noticed you were never high on Conor Benn and Tim Tsyu. At first. Then, they got much better, both. It’s a testament on the importance of the system you mentioned. Interestingly enough, those two have, on top of great genetic, an incredible work ethic and something to prove. They come from money and didn’t have to box to live. For sure they benefited from their name, hence the epidermic reactions they provoke. Nonetheless, they put the work and got better. They both are smart and articulate guys. It’s interesting because they don’t fit the limited and violent boxer from the street that the general audience have in mind. Now, obviously Conor has a red flag, ala Canelo. You forgave Canelo. Will you for Conor? He also has been more vocal about his innocence than all the Millers and Canelo Valdez of the world. He put a million dollar in research to prove his innocence. Will you give him the benefit of the doubt? Or will you condemn him? We can plead that he is innocent, but also that he is a rich kid with a powerful promoter and resources trying to find a way out. He also looked way stronger and not like a world beater at first… But look at Tszyu’s progression. 5 fights ago he looked barely solid and now he is close to beating Charlo.

Cheers, Diego

Bread’s Response: I have an honest opinion, not a stubborn one. If something changes I will recognize it and give it props. I watched Conor Benn and Tim Tszyu both improve. So I gave them both props. But I think you misunderstood me on some things so let me clear them up.

I’m not in a position to forgive anyone. Canelo or Benn didn’t do anything specifically to me so I don’t have to forgive them and they don’t need my forgiveness. I think you’re suggesting that because I have said many times that Canelo is a great and HOF fighter that I believe his excuse for testing positive for PEDS. If you believe that, then you’re wrong. I’ve NEVER said I believed Canelo’s story on the meat. What I said is he’s still a great fighter. That’s a big difference. I don’t even get into if I believe him or not because it doesn’t matter. No one who has tested positive has ever admitted that they took PEDs on purpose. So I just look at the test in terms of positive or negative. Simple.

However, Canelo has done enough in his career to let me know he’s a great fighter but that doesn’t mean I believe him, again believing someone’s excuse is asinine. Either you test positive or negative, I try not to get into the stories behind the test. Every athlete who test positive has a built in excuse, ready to use in case they get caught. So if you’re fan of one you will believe them. If you’re an objective observer you won’t get into it. No one really cares to be honest and I don’t dwell on it. I’m just correcting you on your assumption about me.

As for Benn , I’m not sure what you want me to say. Just because he’s spending money on his defense that doesn’t mean he’s innocent. . Look at the guys in the MLB. Despite overwhelming evidence Roger Clemens literally knocked on politician’s office doors claiming his innocence. Pete Rose lied until he couldn’t lie anymore. It’s just the nature of someone who gets caught. 

Just because Benn is making a big effort to convince the world he isn’t a cheater, doesn’t mean he isn’t a cheater. What it means is, he’s a very determined person. I already knew that. I also don’t believe in coincidences in sports. Benn’s drastic and noticeable improvement coincided with his career best run, right at the time he was about to jump two weight divisions and fight Chris Eubank and he tested positive for a banned substance. If anyone believes that this was a coincidence, so be it. It doesn’t matter to me. Again a test has two results. Positive or Negative. A test doesn’t show culpability. 

I see you’re making the comparison between Canelo and Benn. My opinion is Canelo is a better fighter. He got caught at a different stage of his career. And I don’t have the time to do the mental gymnastics to try to determine when the PEDs started or stopped. So I recognize Canelo as the superior fighter, with superior accomplishments. It has nothing to do with forgiving or believing anyone.

As for Tim Tszyu, that kid has gotten better. He shouldn’t be mentioned with them because he has never tested positive for any banned substances. Someone glazing over these comments may think he has PED issues when he has NOT. I think very highly of Tim Tszyu at the moment and I believe he is one of the top 2 fighters in boxing who has never been champion at this current moment along with Jaron Ennis. Tszyu is a better fighter than Conor Benn. I hope I was clear in my response. 

What’s up Bread?

That was a terrible stoppage and I don’t blame you for being upset in the immediate aftermath.  I hate that J-Rock was robbed of a conclusive ending and I know he’ll be back better than ever. How were you feeling about the fight going into the 9th round? It seemed like Adames was tiring and that J-Rock was finding a home for well-placed counters.

Best wishes, William in West Palm Beach

Bread’s Response: Listen man. I’m never going to apologize for standing up for my guys when I think they were dealt a bad hand. When Julian lost to Vladimir Hernandez I thought he did enough to win but he performed so bad against a journeyman I didn’t fight hard for him. 

When he got stopped by Jermall Charlo I was going to throw the towel in…..but the ref waved the fight off before I had a chance to do so. 

When he got stopped by Jeison Rosario he didn’t like the stoppage. I told him not to publicly complain because it was a fair stoppage and Benji Esteves is a good, honest referee.

 But this was hard for me to stomach. This was a back and forth fight. He showed that he could recover from Adames’s onslaught and Adames was showing fatigue after his surges throughout the fight, so there was a pattern the referee could’ve referenced. Adames also got away with several low blows right before the fight was stopped. I didn’t like the feeling of what happened and my feelings were justified later on when I found out that one judge had Julian down 8 rounds to zero. And another judge only gave him credit for only winning 2 rounds. 

How was I feeling about the fight? Well let me go back to how I felt about the fight when I took it.  I knew it would he an incredibly tough fight. I knew the story of the fight would be Adames was a big, athletic vicious puncher. And Julian has been in a performance slump and looked at as the aging ex champion with durability issues. We were basically up against it on paper and Adames needed an ex world champions name on his resume to devour. Adames had been matched with two previous fighters in Montiel and Devrenchenko who had fought Jermall Charlo. So Julian was the 3rd so there was that aspect of out performing Charlo..

But, I also know that Julian is better than what he’s been showing and we needed a great camp to win. We had one. I felt that Adames is an excellent fighter, with excellent power and athleticism but I wasn’t buying the most feared boxer in the world. I saw him get beaten by Patrick Teixeira. The most feared fighter in the world doesn’t get knocked down and beaten by Patrick Teixeira. Teixeira is a solid fighter, that wouldn’t happen to the most feared fighter in the world….

 So I thought Julian was undervalued going into the fight and Adames was slightly overvalued. I felt like Julian may not have Julio Cesar Chavez’s durability but he’s certainly not Amir Khan. Julian wouldn’t be able to infight as well he does if he were Khan, no disrespect to Khan. On top of that Julian has a big heart and a high skill set. 

I knew we needed to get the fight into deep waters. And I felt early the fight would be dicey. I told the promoters before the fight that Julian wouldn’t disappoint them. That he would perform and not be blown out. But I also said, that the first 4 rounds would be rough but once he warmed up to the power, he would be ok because he doesn’t lack guts and he’s in shape. Being in shape allows you to take a better punch and recover faster. The fight was going pretty much how I reasoned it would. I thought Adames would have his moments and he did. I thought Julian would weather them and come back with moments of his own and he did. 

My goal was for Julian to get his 2nd wind in the championship rounds. I wanted to break even going into the championship rounds. I gave Julian the 1st, 3rd, 5th and 8th. I gave Adames the 2nd, 4th, 6th, 7th and I believe  Adames was winning the 9th. In the 1st round there wasn’t much happening but Adames barely threw a punch. Maybe a hard left hand to the body but not much else…Julian landed a few jabs and a right hand. The 1st was a swing round that I gave to Julian because he was more active.

I’m not going to act like I wanted Julian to be rocked and cut. That would be a lie. But I accepted that it would likely happen. In the 9th round I felt Julian was buzzed but very functional. He was alert, his hands were up and he was seeing the incoming onslaught. He was actually hurt way more in the 4th. In The 9th he was just trying to navigate the storm and return fire. As he was turning Adames out before he went to the ropes and returning fire the fight was stopped. I was comfortable where the fight was, as we were going down the stretch into the championship rounds. I know Julian has been in those rounds before in hard, action fights vs Nathaniel Gallimore and Jarrett Hurd. I know the only times Adames had been in deep, late in fights. He faded vs Teixeira and Devrenchenko. I also observed that Adames for all of the big punching reputation he has, couldn’t put Julian down with one big shot. So therefore he had to up his volume and that’s why his attack was inconsistent. Adames has a good offense but he doesn’t have a special gas tank. If you notice after the 4th round, he took off the 5th round because he was tired. I think it would’ve been a repeated pattern after the 9th round.

I think the fans and BOTH fighters were robbed of a definitive ending. It would have been something to see who could’ve imposed their will down the stretch. Julian’s fans will say that he weathered a bigger storm in round 4 and Adames was fading. Adames’s fans will say he was about to brutally ko Julian. As a trainer and someone who loves Julian. I’m saying let Adames earn his reputation as the most feared fighter in boxing. Let Julian prove himself once again. I know he was in critical shape for the late round surge but he was denied his moment.

And for the record, I have no issue stopping a fight. When Kyrone Davis fought David Benavidez I threw the towel in with no hesitation. I didn’t see that in this fight. I saw a back and forth fight with Adames having a slight edge going down the stretch.

The only part of the fight that made me uncomfortable was Adames was landing some nice body shots and I thought Julian should have defended them better. They wear you out. But Julian for as weird as this may sound, can really take body shots. If you look at his career, he’s never really been visually effected by body shots, the way he has by head shots that he doesn’t see. That’s me being as honest as possible in a fight I was involved in.

Entering his first fight with Robert Helenius, Adam Kownacki was apparently one bout away from getting a title shot. Since that moment in his career, Kownacki has suffered four consecutive losses. Is Kownacki’s collapse historic? I cannot recall the last time a legitimate heavyweight contender fell off the radar so quickly. I went back and looked at some name heavyweights who I thought might have a comparable career collapse. I can’t find anything close to this at all. I was hoping to get your take.

Thank you for all you do!-Chris

Bread’s Response: I haven’t seen anything like Kownacki’s drop off either. I’ve seen some fighters just start losing. But this has been strange. I was there when he lost to Helenius both times. It’s almost if he beat the career out of Kownacki. I’m curious to know what happened. There is a reason for everything, and Adam’s decline has been one of the most rapid I’ve ever seen. 


First off, I want to congratulate and Julian for the performance on Saturday night, even in a loss. Your game plan was heard loud and clear on the broadcast and you were correct in telling Julian to get out and move. That gave Adames a lot of trouble but I feel like what hurt Julian was that he was having a little too much success on the inside and in close range. Stayed there a bit too long and Adames landed the hook that ultimately won him the fight. I'm not going to get into the stoppage as that is pointless but good stuff nonetheless! What I want to touch on is Jared Anderson and his comments about boxing not being his first love and only wanting to do this for three more years before calling it a career.

Anderson certainly looks to be the most talented American HW we have seen in years but it may very well be a short career. Not saying he will be more accomplished or better than Wilder, who has underrated timing and skillset, but Anderson is just so fluid and has a lot of Bowe in him. Anyways, if Anderson is truly only in it for a few years, how do you think that changes the way TR moves him? It is not secret that TR's matchmakers are the best at what they do and they never want to push a fighter before they are truly ready but with Anderson, how patient can you be knowing he may retire in three or so years? Do you just go against your instincts and try to get him in with a top 10 HW next and then ultimately go for a title shot in 2024? Curious to hear your thoughts on this.Last thing, how do you see a potential Lubin vs Adames fight going?

Take care! 

Bread’s Response: Lubin is a more skilled fighter than Adames. I also think he’s more talented. But obviously Lubin taking his punches is a variable that is hard to quantify. I see it as an action fight where Lubin has the slight edge. Lubin is only 27 and although he’s had some tough fights, giving him the eye ball test I feel like he’s still in his prime and hasn’t physically declined. Lubin would also be very confident fighting Adames after seeing his last fight…Great match up with a chance that either could score a ko.

I don’t blame Jared Anderson for wanting to retire early. Let’s see if he can be accomplish enough in boxing to able to do so without any regrets. I’m very high on Jared Anderson, I think he’s the real deal but obviously if he wants out of the game in a few years, his matchmaking needs to be accelerated slightly .I think Anderson is ready for everyone in the world except a handful of fighters. He’s on the cusp and ready for most of the top 10 right now. Although he may want a title shot sooner than later, I think top 10 or big name fighters are on the direct horizon.

Hey Breadman,

I haven’t written in for a long time but thanks for telling me about how your grandpa was at Robinson/Galivan, that is really cool. And props to you for calling out the ref for his BS stoppage last weekend. Anyway just asking for you to break down Fulton/Inoue. Who you picking and how to you see it playing out? The Monster is my favourite current fighter since GGG is semi retired and I hope he wins but man I found Fulton available at +270 at a very sharp book! I had to bet it just based on the odds and the size difference alone. What do you think of my bet?

Thanks man. Filip in Toronto

Bread’s Response: I’m leaning towards Fulton because of his size, instincts, grappling ability and conditioning. But I am curious as to how well will he travel. As you saw with Tim Tszyu he looked like a totally different fighter in the US than he does in Australia. Traveling is dehydrating. And eating agreeable foods is also a major task. I don’t know what Fulton is going to do in terms of cutting weight in a foreign country. Food prep and biological acclimation. Hopefully he does everything right. If he does I think he wins.

Hey Breadman,

Caught your post fight comments on the weekend. I couldn't help but think - "this is boxing, where the hell is Steve Smoger when we need him to let it go!" Boxing isn't for the faint of heart and I understand safety, but it's like people forget what kind of sport this is sometimes. I am not saying we need Moorer vs Cooper every single weekend but it's just a different era of boxing I guess... thank god Ruslan Provodnikov didn't fight in this decade. Title fights (at least to me) need to have the longest leash. Quick question of the week. Which active fighters do you view as "throwbacks"? Everyone has a slightly different take on what that term means. To me, it either means a fighter who will fight anyone, anywhere, anytime. Or a fighter who has a large toolbox at their disposal from years of honing their craft. However you want to box, they have an answer for it. Prime examples being, James Toney and Marvin Hagler. What does it mean to you?

Cheers! Brent from Canada

Bread’s Response: I think an old school fighter, is a fighter who can compete in any era because he doesn’t really care who he fights, he can adapt and compete with any style, and he’s well rounded enough to not get exposed when matched tough.

Usyk, Fury, Beterbiev, Bivol, Canelo, Crawford, Spence, Stevenson, Chocolatito, Estrada, Ioka, Bam, Inoue and Fulton are old school. I believe there are more but I need to see them again at the top level.

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